Last week I posted about my weekend (belated) 4th of July food. In that post, I listed a recipe for potato salad, modified from the original source - in this case, Cook's Country, aka one-third of the conglomerate that is rounded out by America's Test Kitchen and Cooks Illustrated. And though I made numerous modifications to the recipe, I credited Cook's Country as the original source.
Though not well versed in the specifics of the law, I always thought this was an acceptable practice, regardless of where you found the individual recipe. So imagine my surprise when I received this email from their publicity company, Deborah Broide Publicity, the following morning.
Deborah: Hi. Please remove the recipe from Cook's Country. Permission was not giving to use this recipe (as I'm the one who gives permission). In the future, if you'd like to use a recipe simply email me first. Also, we do not allow our recipes to be modified (in print). Many thanks!
I was a bit taken aback, to say the least, and admittedly irritated. I was getting ready for work, but in the interest of a quick response, I replied:
Me: I'll take it down when I get to work.
I then continued after I arrived. I wasn't going to post this whole exchange, but I think it's kind of fundamental to the story, so I did. If you read it and think I was being rude or bitchy, then I apologize. I can only say... *laughing* you shoulda known me five years ago. This is downright Zen for me.
Me: So even if I ask your permission now, I can't even mention that I made three modifications to it? (Note: I actually made more.) People make modifications to other people's recipes all the time. It's part of the food blog life. But if I can't even talk about it, then I won't print the recipe at all.
Her: Sorry, no modifications allowed. Our recipes are tested up to 100 times for a reason (i.e. because they work). Let's agree to disagree and please don't print our recipes at all (as they are copyrighted). Thanks!
Me: Fine. I'll come up with my own potato salad recipe next time and pretend I never saw this one.
Her: It sounds like you are having a bad day. I hope it gets better!
Me: By the by, I'm not sure why or how you honed in on me, of all bloggers. Your recipes - including this one - are reprinted everywhere and other bloggers I know have never asked your permission either.
And I find it rather pretentious of you to assume that your recipes are so perfect that no one should be allowed to say that they modified them. What right do you have to tell me I can't?
Her: Honestly it's not just you. We have a team that asks bloggers to remove recipes -- we can't get to all of them but we are working our way through. It's nothing personal. That said, as the PR person -- of 14 years -- I give permission to tons of food bloggers to use recipes. They shoot me a quick email first, and they agree not to change the recipe. I even agree to send them photos etc. to help them. Again, our recipes are copyrighted (i.e. it's illegal to use them w/o permission). Have a better rest of the day. Sorry you are so angry/annoyed.
Me: Deborah, I appreciate that you are trying to play the bigger person and be all kind and patient and whatnot. That's my typical M.O., as I consider myself a spiritual and loving individual. But stop talking down to me about it. It's not necessary.
I'm simply annoyed about the modification part. People modify recipes all the time to add their own nuances to it. EVERYONE does that. I guess your recipes are more perfect than everyone else's? I just don't get that, I'm sorry.
From now on, I just won't use any of your recipes. There are plenty of other resources out there. I will also never purchase anything from America's Test Kitchen/Cook's Illustrated/Cook’s Country because apparently, our philosophies seriously diverge.
Her: Again, it's illegal to use our recipes w/o permission (and we do know who uses what. We get daily updates every day). You don't have permission. Enough is enough, don't you think?
Me: Yes, I get it. I'm not stupid about the copyright issue. It's removed. However, I was just informed by a wonderful cook friend that lists of ingredients are not copyrighted, only method. So I know how to avoid the land mines next time, yes? Later.
Her: Please do not email me again. I'm asking nicely. Thanks!
At this point, I felt humiliated. But still irked. The key issue here for me was the modifications. I had always read, and thought it was implicitly understood among us food bloggers, that if you made 4 or 5 modifications to a recipe, it was more than okay to post it and giving credit was just being polite.
Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case for ATK/CI/CC. At least they don't seem to think so. While hunting for information about recipes and copyright law, I found an interesting cnet article with the following excerpt:
Even the very nature of recipes is based on taking others' ideas and making slight changes to them to suit individual tastes. Katherine Bell, online managing editor for America's Test Kitchen, acknowledges that recipes are a unique case when it comes to copyright infringement because just about every recipe is based, at least in part, on a previous one. She gives the example of a recipe for no-knead bread that appeared in The New York Times. The recipe proved wildly popular, and recipes for similar breads have been popping up in cooking sites and magazines since.
"It started as the idea of one person in New York and now it's a whole new genre of baking," Bell said. "That just illustrates how every recipe owes a debt to something before it."
and further:
"To some extent, it's great if people are talking about our recipes in other places," said Bell, from America's Test Kitchen. "It's publicity." But there's a limit to what is acceptable use.
America's Test Kitchen is a small outfit compared with the family of cooking magazines from publishing behemoth Conde Naste. It sells a bimonthly magazine called Cook's Illustrated and charges an annual subscription to access its recipes online. Being a small company that puts a lot of labor into developing each recipe--America's Test Kitchen can sometimes test a recipe up to 100 times before it's been perfected--it's in a unique position.
"We have more to lose (than other recipe sites) if people are posting our recipes online because we have fewer recipes, we've invested a lot in every single one, and there would be no reason for people to pay a subscription if they can get our recipes for free," said Bell.
If a Web site has reposted one of America's Test Kitchen's recipes, the company will ask that the site take it down. "But in practice, we're not out there patrolling the Web," Bell said.
According to my email with Deborah:
We have a team that asks bloggers to remove recipes -- we can't get to all of them but we are working our way through....
(and we do know who uses what. We get daily updates every day).
'Kaaaay.
All that aside though, the concern of ATK/CI/CC seems to be that if someone publishes their recipe, they will suffer a financial loss due to people being able to access their stuff for free as opposed to paying the online subscription fee.
That seems to me to be a rather ridiculous point. I mean, I can see their side of it to some extent. But considering the number of recipes of theirs that have been posted on blogs and forums (and for god's sake, it wasn't just me, the number is really rather high), and the fact that they have still prospered, even excelled in readership and sales this last couple of years, that argument loses some steam.
And what bothers me the most is that they don't "allow" modifications. WTF?? I mean, seriously. Isn't that part of being a good cook? Modifying recipes to suit your and your loved ones' tastes? I thought that's what I was supposed to be striving for as a cook! And she wants to tell me that I CAN'T?? Because their recipes are PERFECT? *Cussing like mad*
But all this is getting away from the fundamental problem. The fact is I didn't do anything wrong. Copyright law regarding recipes is vague, to be sure. However, there are, in my opinion and, more importantly, in the opinion of numerous patent and copyright attorneys, two clear points to be made, specifically as they relate to what I posted.
1. A list of ingredients cannot be copyrighted.
This is a point that is not up for debate. Even if it were, I didn't post their list of ingredients. I changed it by 4 ingredients.
2. Directions and methods can only be subject to copyright if they are "substantial literary expression."
And just what is substantial literary expression? Well, luckily (or not), I've read far too much on the subject the last few days and have come up with a pretty decent way to describe it. What it means is that someone has to have verbiage in their directions that is unique or personal. Anything else is public domain. For example, there are only a couple of ways you could say "heat oven to 350°, cook chicken until no longer pink." But if someone said they preferred a certain type of dough, or reminisced about their childhood, or used some really specific personally invented method by which to execute the recipe, then that may be copyrighted as "substantial literary expression."
Well guess what? No shock, but this recipe didn't have anything that could be considered substantial in terms of its instructions. There were directions like "bring to boil over high heat, add 1 tsp salt, reduce heat to medium-low, and simmer until potatoes are tender, 10- to 15 minutes."
Um. Yeah. I know how to do that in my sleep. That's common knowledge, not unique instruction.
Granted, if I wanted to avoid the issue altogether, I could completely rewrite the directions portion of the recipe, right? Right. So I now present to you my recipe for potato salad. And you know what? I'll be honest. It's not even that astounding. It's classic American fare and if I had to rate the original recipe on a scale of 1 to 10, it would be about a 6. Mine is maybe, maybe an 8, in terms of what this is. But like I said, it was my first potato salad, so I can always play around. I'm just posting it to prove a point. Pardon any stupid phrasing or grammar in directions, as I was simply reinventing the wheel. ;)
Potato Salad
INSPIRED BY (UGH) you know who and you know from where... fuckers
Ingredients
2 lbs Yukon Gold potatoes, peeled and cubed
1½ tsp salt, divided
3 tbsp dill pickle juice, plus ¼ cup finely chopped dill pickles, divided
3 tbsp yellow mustard
¼ tsp pepper
½ tsp celery seed
6 tbsp mayonnaise
¼ cup sour cream
½ small red onion, chopped finely
2 large hard-boiled eggs, peeled and diced
Directions
Boil potatoes with 1 teaspoon salt until tender. Drain, then place on baking sheet. Mix 2 tablespoons pickle juice and 1 tablespoon mustard together and evenly coat potatoes with mixture. Chill in refrigerator.
Mix 1 tablespoon pickle juice, chopped pickles, ½ tsp salt, 2 tablespoons mustard, pepper, celery seed, mayonnaise, sour cream and red onion. Stir in cooled potatoes and chill. Stir in diced eggs before serving.






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July 26, 2008 11:00 AM
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«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 365 Newer› Newest»Og Gawd (roliing my eyes)...someone jammed the pickle up their asses real good.
You handles yourself well and their attitude is as if they created the notion of cooking food.
You handles yourself well and I've made a potato salad with the same ingredients you have...who copied who?lol
In the future and in keeping with their policies...you should ( I will) post their recipe which I would have tested & tasted, give my honest opinion of how their test kitchen failed my palate and then offer up my own, better version to which people can use, alter or cook as is.
SHEESH!
Hmmm... Add diced celery to your list of ingredients and well, you have my Grandmom's "unique" list of ingredients! Geez.
That is really pathetic. And Kudos to you for your diplomacy!
Next time, boil the potatoes the day before and marinate them in vinegar overnight. Nice tang!
Again, well done Melissa. You know you have the entire support of our corner of the blogosphere. I will be making this potatoe salad this weekend. Watch the blog for it next week.
Way to go!!!!!
Nice job!! Way to stand up to them. I am actually a little sympathetic if people are publishing their recipes verbatim, as they do test them many many times and need to make money. But that is obviously not what you did. If somebody was looking for a potato salad recipe tested hundreds of times, they wouldn't come to your site for your recipe - they'd still have to go to Cook's Illustrated.
Anyway, way to go and thanks for the clarification on copyright issues. It was always something I wondered about but was never very clear on.
I wonder if they have outsourced their publicity company?
Good post, you said basicly what the lawyer I checked with said.
Excellent post! I think you made your point well. :)
Honestly, I can't believe all this hoopla over a potato salad recipe. And one you didn't even like that much! It's a crazy world we live in.
You know I'm a fan of CI/ATK/CC, and while I understand they want to make money, the fact that they charge for content on the Internet in this day and age is astounding. Obviously many people post the recipes (for free) elsewhere on the net, just like people post videos on YouTube and share songs on other sites.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - they could avoid all this if they just made their recipes free. Then all the blogging world would simply link to the ATK/CC/CI sites and drive traffic there. They could keep other aspects of the site paid (the tasting lab, equipment ratings, etc) but the recipes would be free. I'm sure people would pay for the other stuff and the traffic being driven to the site from the recipes might even...gasp...encourage someone to subscribe to the site for the other info.
Then again, I am married to a marketing genius. :P
OOooohh, you got to love it. I tell you what, send me some of the good recipes out of that book, and I will TOTALLY post it up on my site, WITH modifications and personal verbage. :) Crediting of course the original source of my inspiration.
Are you Freakin kidding me - That is insane. They are getting credit and exposure and they should be so happy with that. They have way too much time on their hands - I loved your dialog and you are 100% correct and will support you.
Hey next time rename it and take all the credit screw them!!
Cheers
Cathy
www.wheresmydamnanswer.com
Holy crap. I just read all this and I'm speechless. And disgusted. The beauty of blogs is that we all share ideas and give credit. It's been a phenomenal honor system, but also, it makes you better "friends" with those folks you credit and we've all done it and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. But this woman you liaised with is not only wrong, but was condescending. I totally understand your anger/frustration. I had a similar experience when I guest-wrote for another website - the former guest-writer took a very similar condescending tone and words were exchanged. Anyway, I am glad you posted this and I think for what it's worth they can just shove it. Personally, I don't even find their stuff that interesting - and good riddens. And if you ever make my potato salad recipe I will not take offence not one bit! :)
Jesus. What a condescending beeyotch. Sorry you had to deal with that stupidity.
Glad you put this up, Melissa.
I've been reading CI for at least a decade. They do some good stuff, and I know they work hard on their recipes. But I've always had problems with how they Americanize ethnic recipes, not to mention their claim that their recipes are fool proof, when they most definitely are not. I don't trust their recipes any more than I trust recipes from other sources. I've had more than a few failures first time out.
Also, they tend to make the most obvious choices sound like major revelations. I can't tell you how many times I've been reading their testing process and thought "why don't they do this?", only to discover they eventually did do "this" and make it sound like a huge breakthrough in food preparation.
Anyway, good for you. They needed to be outed.
Melissa, I'm trying to breathe and do some yoga moves to calm my ass down. Do you know how angry I am? I knew that Chris Kimball was a prick! That damn bow tie has choked off all his air supply. The nerve to think that just because they have tested a recipe 100 times makes it perfect! ARG! Hell, I think baking is an excact science but cooking?! I think most chefs and people would tell you cooking, while maybe not an art, is more improvational than anything. Who wants a dish that is robotically the same each and every time? Screw them, sounds like they wanted to pick on the little blog that dare critized their precious recipe.
Oh by the way... this is the magazine who recommended using lima beans in lieu of avocados in guacamole. WTF?
I'm going to go try to calm myself down because I'm fucking pissed.
I think you handled yourself well. She's just a bitch. As for the legality issue...you know I usually have to chime in BUT...I either slept thought Intellectual Property or didn't go or didn't understand when I did go. My professor was Chinese and had a REALLY thick accent so I have NO idea what he said...ever. So, yeah...I have NO knowledge of IP law. :)
As for your potato salad, I'm sure it rocks. Though, I hate mayo so I won't be partaking. Though, maybe I'll make it for my next bbq and see what the masses think. :)
now i sooo want to post one of their recipes WITH modifications!! muhahaha (evil laugh)
What a crock of crap.
I don't pretend to know much about the law either, but I bet you that none of that would stand up in court.
At least one or more of those ingredients shows up in some form or another in every single potato salad recipe in the world, so I think that the "creators" of this recipe would have a damned hard time upholding their claims in court.
What a bunch of morons.
I'm just sitting here shaking my head! Unreal!!
I agree with Mike - Morons.
Thanks for the link Krysta.
WOW! I actually interviewed to work at ATK/CI/CC as a web designer a couple of years ago. (Got the job, but didn't take it because I had second thoughts about moving back to Boston.)
While I was there, I mentioned something about modifying a recipe and they said that their policy is that any recipe they produce has been "perfected" and modifications aren't encouraged. I thought that was bizarre, but I never knew they were so anal about it.
Some people are die-hard CI fans. I like their recipes, but don't find them very inventive or distinctive. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever made a recipe that I didn't modify. Sometimes you don't have the ingredients listed, sometimes you're allergic, sometimes you think they're boring and want to give it personal twist.
That said, I had a freshly made donut during my interview that was fabulous.
Your potato salad looks wonderful and really might be "Inspired by" any traditional potato salad :)
I think you should post this lady's name & email address so we can all send her our thoughts. LIKE THE FACT THAT SHE'S AN EFFING BITCH.
It appears you're having a bad day? No, no. It appears she's having a panties-in-a-wad-better-than-thou-I-love-me-some-power kinda of day.
God, I'm so pissed and I don't even cook.
I commend you for standing up to them and informing yourself about the legal truth of the matter! Too often, large companies are able to suppress completely legitimate uses of their content just by sending intimidating letters to people who are not well enough informed to know their claims are bogus. Resisting and spreading the word is the only way to prevent such abuses of copyright.
I did appreciate, at least when I started reading, that they expressed a willingness to grant permission, even if it shouldn't need to be sought. I'm sympathetic to the idea that they might want to know where and how their content is being used, although claiming nonexistent "rights" over the material is not the proper way to do it. The idea that you shouldn't be able to modify their recipes, however, is absurd. The only real motivation I can think of is that they know substantially modified recipes cannot possibly be subject to their copyright, and think they retain a greater possibility of legal control if they try to intimidate you into using only their words. In practice, though, I think the only thing the no-modifications policy encourages is not crediting them as the source for recipes you've modified -- surely not what they'd want. But if you've made changes, it's a lot harder to get noticed if you don't mention them. And, as far as I know, there would be absolutely nothing illegal about adapting their recipes without crediting a source; there would just be whatever ethical qualms you might have. All in all, it sounds like a really bad idea for them.
So, basically, good for you, bad for them, and I can't imagine where they're coming from.
This makes me not want to buy anything from them again...
Aside from the modification issue (which is supremely anal) the talking down to you crap would have made me angrier and not calmer. I hate being patronized by someone that doesn't want to deal with the issue at hand.
Holy Cow! (Oh wait ... I think Batman might have a copyright on that phrase)
I've always been a big fan of Cook's Country and to a lesser degree Cook's Illustrated and I'm amazed at this.
I did not know that food could be have a copyright. Does this mean that if I make my own homemade potato chips - I should consult with Lays first?
What about all those copycat recipe sites? I guess they are next.
And Deborah's attitude was condescending and frankly, rather obnoxious. I'm sure she sat with the rest of the blog police and giggled with each "have a nice day now."
So much for my subscription with Cooks.
"could be have" .... LOL ...I sure screwed that up!
wow. they are full of themselves, aren't they?
Wow. That's nuts.
I've always wondered about how to deal with ATK/CI/CC recipes, since they are the only magazine I know that doesn't make their recipes available free on the web. For other mags, I usually link back directly to the original recipe, and then post it with my modifications (usually in italics if they are few). For ATK/CI/CC recipes, I usually link to someone else's blog or say "inspired by" and then make serious changes.
But the crazy part is the no modifications thing. Because that IS "INSPIRED BY." Once you change it, as long as you make it clear that you've changed it, it's no longer their copyrighted recipe. The publicist doesn't seem to get that.
I understand their point, they need to earn money, etc., but they should find a less anal way to treat bloggers. Emailing them for permission and not allowing modifications is not practical, and is a really good way to piss off the blog community (who represent a substantial part of their market). Talk about a REALLY BAD PR decision.
Wow. ATK/CI/CC, if you're reading this (which I hope you are), you need to either change PR policies or PR firms. For real. Don't make an enemy out of the food blogging community.
I'm back to read more reactions and I love it...keep it coming. This outfit is out to lunch and I must add that I tried their Jambalaya (exactly as they instructed) and it went straight into the toilet.
Perhaps, when people try their recipes and they don't turn out, should send the receipts for the costing of making the flop of an America's Test Kitchen recipe.
All I can say is wow...WOW...WOW...I can't NOT even believe this happened...honestly...CANNOT EVEN BELIEVE...the assumption from that company about their frickin' perfect recipes! Ugh. I have made several of their recipes and many have fallen to crapper..they are not perfect and require many modifications. I am astounded...completely. They were trying to intimidate you which has made me cancel my subscription...it's over me and them....the fact food bloggers credit recipes should be an honor. The more they are heard people will subscribe for fear of missing anything.
What a phenomenal post this was, good for you...so proud.
Melissa- I'm sorry you had deal with this. I don't know if it'll make you feel any better to know that you've saved a bunch of us $20 on subscriptions to Cook's Illustrated/ATK/CC and whatnot, but I thought you should know.
It's kind of funny timing because I was just prepared to send in a subscription card. Eh bien. There's only room for one anal-retentive cook in my kitchen and that's me. Their loss.
Man, what a whore! I used to like ATK and their mags and cookbooks, but now I don't even want to watch, read or see them. You go Mel, you handled yourself very well, I wish you kinda went Medieval on her ass.
1. Okay, I bet they tested *one* recipe 100 times just they could say that they test their recipes -- some times up to a 100 times.
2. If they have make their recipes up a 100 times before they get it right, maybe they need some better cooks in the kitchen.
3. Didn't she ever hear about bad publicity and the harm that it does to sales? She would have been better off if she had never started this, Miss-14-years-in-PR!
Guess what? That is MY potato salad recipe, minus the sour cream! So, they modified MY recipe! How funny and silly of that woman to make such a big deal out of this. I guess SHE was the one having the bad day.
Stacey Snacks
Absolutely unbelievable. I don;t know what pisses me off more her attitude or the fact that they think they are so perfect!
That was my Mom's salad recipe that they stole!!!
I think we all have stuff "borrowed" by other bloggers. It's what we do and as long as we have linked and given them the proper credit it should all be good. I have stuff "borrowed" all the time and as long as it is linked to me and I am given credit all is good!I think adapted from is a very generous addition to a post.
I found this post through Peter M. who is quite outraged by it all! Glad you stood your ground!
I came here via Evil Chef Mom, and I have to say that I am so proud of you for standing up to that kooky woman. How ridiculous to to say you are not "allowed" to change a recipe. Can you see her cooking in her kitchen? Well, damn. I need to feed 10 people but the recipe only makes enough for four. I guess I can't use it.
Good on you for not totally losing your cool. I'm astounded at their nerve at trying to bully you in an area where they're wrong. If you had told them to take a flying leap they would have no recourse. I hope somebody there loses their job over this ... and I know I'll never get another ATK subscription again. Mine had expired and I have been seriously thinking about getting it again. Until now. Their loss.
How aggravating! While I can understand their attitude that their recipes are only available through subscription, their attitude is arrogant and unnecessary. What's with the "I'm trying to be nice" like she's threatening you?
I just grabbed a recent copy of CI and they had the gall to change the bistecca alla fiorentina recipe, a classic classic preparation but we regular folks aren't allowed to?
I guess they made it clear that you should never tell anyone that your recipe was inspired by theirs. I hope they don't find out that I made a photocopy of one of their recipes and gave it to a friend :)
I particularly like when you tell her to stop talking down to you. Although you both played into "getting the last word" (not that I blame you, I'd probably do it too), she was very unprofessional in representing ATK. Aside from her being unprofessional, I think their restictions are pretty silly. Seems to me like they're fighting a losing battle. They'd probably find more success in promoting their products on the foodblogs rather than alientating foodbloggers.
good for you! as i was reading this post, i went back and forth between amazement at their nerve and audacity and pride at your backbone. seriously, you're my new hero. :)
I don't even know what to say here. I just wanted to extend my support to you. It is all a tad ridiculous - did you earn millions of dollars from that recipe? Is that why they are upset. I mean most of us do this for entertainment right? We share and get excited over each others discoveries. As far as I'm concerned if you made that many changes then the recipe is yours. You didn't plagarize!!!! You didn't end of story. But they are a big bad organization and you are a blogger. So therefore they think they can push you around. Sorry, considering I claimed not to know what to say, I've said a lot.
Hang in there, keep posting and forget they ever existed.
Nice work, I hate large companies that get too big for their own boots and try and push people around.
Well done for standing up to them.
I've only heard about this from Peter (Kalofagas's site). I can't believe the "ho-ha" over this whole recipe thing. I support you completely and I love how you fought it out with that awful woman! I love your spirit!
Melissa, I too just learned of this issue from Peter M.'s blog and I think you should hire him as your publicity agent! JOKE! I chide the both of you... :)
What an amazing situation, it simply beggars the imagination... I am still staring unbelievingly at the line: "Sorry, no modifications allowed. Our recipes are tested up to 100 times for a reason (i.e. because they work)." LOL
Did it ever occur to them that by giving them credit in your posting you were actually doing them a service? Was that even mentioned? [shaking head]
Good for you! If they want to hunt bloggers out for simply following the most common instructions they need to re-evaluate where/how they are spending their money... Maybe then the money they lose (yeah right!) from a creative cook playing with a recipe won't seem so drastic!
PS - I loved how she asked you to stop e-mailing her. She started it! LOL
I'm not a blogger but I used to buy the magazines etc. No more. I emailed them and told them exactly why they lost my custom. Perhaps now they'll get how downright patronising, arrogant and rude their attitude is. Well done, Melissa, you handled it a lot better than I would.
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding of the law as it relates to recipes and the like, you have done absolutely nothing wrong, and pardon my French, but these idiots don't have a pot to piss in on this one. If you copy/pasted their recipe verbatim, yes, you'd be at fault, but you didn't do anything of the sort. A collection of ingredients isn't protectable under any intellectual property branch of law that I know of.
This kind of draconian abuse of the notion of copyright is a big problem these days and I have very strong opinions on this, so I say give em hell (and let us all know if we can help in any way). You don't need their permission, their blessing, and from the looks of it, those thankless, pretentious jerks don't need any of our business or good-will, either.
/rant
wow, what horseshit! thanks for posting this - i'm really considering never buying anything from them again. what's the point of making new dishes if they can't be posted in my blog?
that infuriates me! i never make their stuff and now i never will. for sure!
thanks for posting :)
I am so glad Judy sent me over here, because the two of you have just saved me some money, as I will no longer be purchasing ATK.
Good for you!
What kind of company is so insecure about themselves that they have a specific blogger witch hunt team in place?!
Well, I guess I won't be posting any of their recipes in the future. I can tell you that I checked this issue out before I started my blog. Mostly because my husband is a lawyer and he made me. And if lists of ingredients are not copyrightable, and you changed the directions on how to make the dish, they should be THANKING you that you gave them credit for the original recipe.
So yeah, I won't be posting their recipes or buying their magazines/books. Because they're poopheads.
Ugh. CI was on my short list of magazines to subscribe to soon. Now it's off. Your loss CI.
I got here through Peter M's blog and I'm completely disgusted. Who the hell do they think they are?? I mean, come on!! Big "stars" like Nigella, Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsay don't act this stupid way, and other amazing publications, such as Gourmet, Bon Appétit and Saveur do not either - their staff must know better.
I'm glad you posted it, so we can be aware of such idiots. I have two books by them but haven't cooked from them yet. I think I'll toss them, since they'll be of no good use.
Thank you, Melissa, for being open and honest about the whole thing with us, other bloggers.
Warm hugs from Brazil,
Patricia.
You are getting press!
This is the second reference I've run across to this post.
http://www.leftoverqueen.com/forum/index.php?topic=816.0
I am so sorry you had to go through all that. I'm going to mention this on my blog and link back here if you don't mind. I think the more food bloggers who know, the better. Idiots!
What an absolute load of nonsense!!!
I'm so dumbfounded I don't know where to begin ;)
Next time (not that their will be!) just don't credit them - it's not like it's such an original recipe...! ;)
I thought the issue would only be if you copied it as is, without credit... the fact you changed it... and credited the original inspiration (and that's all it is - inspiration!!) surely makes the whole copyright argument null and void?!??!?
Good for you for standing up for yourself against that patronising jobsworth! :)
This is just a classic example of people on a power trip. I think what you dis was the right thing to do. You did nothing wrong at all - and that is the most simplistic potato salad recipe I have ever seen- I think they stole it from my grandmother!!!!
i don't who you are or where you came from but seriously, you rock. thanks for the education!
F america's test kitchen!!
Gawd, I want *that* job: to get paid to read food blogs all day. I'd even do it *without* the smothering arrogance :)
Unbelievable! I'm just speechless.
Thanks for the very interesting look into this important question. I've long wondered who owns recipes and what fair use might be. You pushed the envelope, and I appreciate that.
Way to take 'em on!
And they tested how to make potato salad 100 times???? I am sorry, but do they even know how to cook? LOL I love your version better :-p
Wow, what a weird course of events! The crap you had to go through just might (maybe) be worth it, as your research and experience is now educating great big bunches of other food bloggers!
And you just tipped the balance for me whether to subscribe to CI or not -- I got one of those trial issues in the mail the other day and was thinking about it for a while.
I certainly hope they enjoy all of the bad PR they receive from this little incident :-) PR is not about spending your day asking people to remove references to your recipes.
If foodies aren't their audience, then who else is gonna love their over-analytic addiction to cooking? It's just not the way to handle your community. Chalk this up to 'some companies suck'. Just because they print recipes doesn't mean they can't also be assholes.
I find it hilarious how arrogant they come off. A single recipe cannot be 'the best' ... let's face it, everyone has different likes or dislikes. Just because five cooks in a kitchen made potato salad 100 times doesn't mean it's the only one people should make and that it somehow cannot be inspiration for a different version. Who knows, maybe they fucked up ... maybe batch #75 was the one I would have liked best.
... I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but now I'm annoyed and want to go throw away some magazines. I can only imagine how you must have felt during the entire correspondence.
excellent post
i've done a similar rant on a similar topic on my own blog.
good on you and full marks for giving us the transcript of the emails.
can't wait to make your potato salad which was inspired by fuckers. must be fucking good.
by the way, you didnt actually print the recipe did you?!? you only tuped it. 'HER' might be getting her knickers in a twist all for nothing.
Crazy! I don't use many of their recipes but just went back to double check I hadn't posted any.
Funny I posted a modification of a recipe from Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day & heard from one of the authors, Zoe Francois, thanking me for sharing it with my readers. I guess its all about how you see it.
I'll gladly display a Boycott Cook's Illustrated graphic that links to this post if anyone makes it.
Never liked their anemic soulless recipes. They just plain suck the fun out of cooking.
I feel you!! i am sure everyone said enough about the subject...you can post recipes and never give out the credit to anyone, changes are yours and those people cannot just claim a well known recipe that have been cooked for ages to themselves!!
I think to start with, you were kind enough to link them to your recipe...she at least should have been appreciative about that!
have a wonderful day!
Good for you! I thought at the time it was ridiculous and I'm glad you've gotten it out there!
What in the hell? I have never heard of such bullshit. I just did one of their recipes last week and **OHHH***modified it. and I will post it too. The bastards, I will cancel my subscription to their magazine today!@
I subscribe to both CI and CC, but I'll be thinking really hard about renewing my subscriptions.
Now, where oh where do you think they get their recipes to start with? Surely they didn't sit around and think to themselves, "let's make a salad with potatoes!" and start from absolute zero. They HAD to have started with somebody's recipe, which they MODIFIED! How dare they!
Such hypocrisy makes me ill.
Here's a really interesting situation: Cook's Illustrated lives from testing to death recipes (lists of ingredients and methods) and then publishing an account of the recipe that they choose as best, often with photos and additional commentary. The recipes in question are almost always for familiar dishes or culinary products.
Copyright law surely applies to the photos and to the commentaries, and you might argue that an excerpt could be published verbatim under the "fair use" doctrine (but be careful, since the intellectual property -- IP -- lawyers are still fighting regularly over the definition of "fair use"; that fighting sometimes takes place in front of judges and, sometimes, juries).
But what, then, about the list of ingredients and the non-innovative expression of the methods? An advocate or attorney could argue that the firm invested substantial effort, capital and perhaps innovation in creating the methods and testing them. What may in fact be at stake here is a variation not of COPYRIGHT but of PATENT -- the right of an innovator to file a claim for an innovation based on discovery and first use and subsequently to enjoy the right to license that innovation during a limited period of time (I don't know the current schedule administered under U.S. law by the U.S. Patent Office, but let's say that a simple patent, once filed and validated, is in force for 15 years). The fee for Internet access to CI recipes is similar a license to explore and use their innovations, presented as a digital library subscription.
Add to that the further fillip that the firm's lawyers might be tempted also to pursue a target case under TRADEMARK law -- in the event that a blogger misused a name, title, expression or other representation that in the public mind is reasonably associated with the firm. They could assert, for example, that the very act of mentioning Cook's Illustrated in connection with a recipe or method that you post online is associating them with something inferior, tantamount to detracting from the good will value associated with their product (the unpatented intellectual property published under the copyright laws of the United States).
So we are in the whirling limbo of unformulated IP law -- what explicit right does the firm enjoy by virtue of modifying and testing something already in the public domain, then publishing the results? If the management of Cook's Illustrated or a similar firm takes a really aggressive stance (similar to those of the recording companies and the Motion Picture Association of America concerning digital copies and sharing), their lawyers can take the case to the courts. Which will cost a lot of money and create even more unfavorable publicity than shown in the 69 comments above.
Instead of that, the firm has chosen the lowest-cost approach of hiring a rights management clerk (your e-mail correspondent) whose job description is to grant rights to the published and therefore copyrighted material, with instructions that the presumably cost-free permissions to republish will credit Cook's Illustrated or the appropriate company division and that the rights agreement, however informal, stipulate that no substitutions or modifications are permitted. That's your e-mail correspondent. She's not a lawyer; she's a clerk, who appeared to be doing her job as instructed. She probably doesn't have the background or authorization to provide additional explanations or engage in dialogue -- those responsibilities lie elsewhere, with their legal counsel and (certainly by now) with their marketing department. I thought that within her narrow remit, she was doing a pretty good job of responding to you with a courteous tone. She got a bit annoyed with your "in the face" comments (with which she was not authorized to deal) and she tried to cut off the exchange. Probably so that she could devote herself to the job for which the company was paying her -- rights management.
Sounds like a fine subject for some enterprising writer to use as a basis for a newspaper or magazine article, complete with interviews, photos and competing recipes -- duly credited, of course!
I'm with you TOTALLY!!!!!! Good girl! This is like David against Goliath... and who won? David, of course!
You have all my support in this affair. My admiration for fighting and demonstrating who is right here!!! :D
I don't have a whole lot new to add to all the outrage/support expressed above (with humor in a lot of cases), other than to thank you for taking a stand and for writing it up with some eloquence, given the situation :)
Me, I'm now considering the fate of the considerable pile of CI magazines sitting at home. Am I actually allowed to read them, or just bask in their Holy Presence?
Came by way of Kalofagas. How can they dictate that you can't modify their recipes? It's no longer their recipe if you made changes. Saying "adapted from" or "inspired by" and giving them credit is standard practice.
And she's wrong. Recipes, or list of ingredients, can't be copyrighted. Just the words in the directions are, and you didn't reprint their recipe. Those were your own words. So that was all proper too.
I don't believe if something's online that it's a free for all, but you handled everything properly as far as I could see.
I wonder if you'll get a response from them?
** Footnote to my post on Intellectual Property, above: But CI almost certainly doesn't file patent applications on its innovations, of course. That would cost too much and yield little or nothing. In fact, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office might laugh them out of the examining office!
You were very polite and kept your cool. I doubt that I would have under the circumstances. The attitude and performance of their "PR Rep" leaves something to be desired. There are only so many ways to prepare a potato salad and still have it be our American classic summer fare. Most recipes for this dish are quite similar even if they are not considered "perfect" and have not been tested 100 times. Thank you for your version, no matter where you got your inspiration.
Idiots! Count me as another one no longer buying their stuff. Food bloggers are their base. What was this woman thinking?! Can we make "their" version and send it to them--I'm sure it would be tasty and smell delicious after traveling in the hot July sun. I"M KIDDING PEOPLE! (kinda)
Wow, I find it hilarious that in the name of preserving their reputation they've made themselves a laughing stock ALL OVER THE INTERNET.
I mean even if someone downright stole a recipe from someone else, unless they are a robot and included the nostalgic story about the original author's fear of onions, it's not ILLEGAL. How many ways can you say: pasta, water, salt. Boil the water. Salt the water. Put the pasta in the water.
I think most people get really tired, really fast of the "I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you" type cooks. Recipes and food were meant to be shared! They bring happiness and confidence and comfort. Being stingy with a recipe, or even technique, just shows the world an ugly, greedy person-and suddenly the food just doesn't taste as good as it once did.
Thanks so much for informing the world about that exchange. CI's reaction brings the word "petty" to new heights. There were so many better ways to phrase their contact with you. I have subbed to CI since the charter issue but refuse to "pay" for "membership" to their site. One more way to squeeze another penny out of someone for the same content.
I haven't read all the comments but I wonder how they found out you posted that recipe? Um... I mean Y*O*U*R Version! :D
It should be flattering to them that you wanted to use their recipe at all with all the millions of recipes out there. I would think that as long as you took the time to credit and say that you made modifications, it would be fine. Crazy! Thanks for sharing your story.
How many cookbook authors think their recipes are the best? Yet how many of us don't agree and make modifications? Blogs are full of posts like this.
The people at CI have always had sticks up their butts and I think draw more negative goodwill these days than what they should. As one of my communication law professor said, "You can't copyright an idea. You can only copyright the expression of it."
Wow, that's terrible. So my copyright bullying going on. People like this most often don't even know the law, and assume you don't either,but will threaten you anyway. Screw them! According to their logic, any recipe for potato salad could be construed as a modification of their recipe, right? So does that mean that no one can post a potato salad recipe ever again? BULLSHIT! Take you copyrights and stick em where the sun don't shine!
In my anger I mistyped, I meant "so MUCH copyright bullying."
Carry on.
I came here from Peter Kalofagas's site, I will post a link to here from my site as Peter did, the more people that know about this the better.
This is so outrageous, who on earth do these people think they are?
I "USE TO"....and please notice the emphasis on use to.....Watch ATK every Saturday afternoon on PBS. I'm not sure I could stomach any more of their self-righteous bullshit after reading this post!!
Very well written and I hope the powers that be are sitting up and taking notice and at the least firing that incompetents arse for unprofessional behaviour.
Way to go!! All of us make our own modifications to recipes. I guess Cooks wants to tell us the perfect way to make EVERYTHING! then they can sell us a giant cookbook and no one would ever have to have an original thought again!!
WOW the arrogance! I'll join you in not supporting Cooks!
I'm glad you stood up to them! (I espcially liked the part where you called them fuckers LOL)
"Also, they tend to make the most obvious choices sound like major revelations. I can't tell you how many times I've been reading their testing process and thought "why don't they do this?", only to discover they eventually did do "this" and make it sound like a huge breakthrough in food preparation."
This is why I dislike Cook's Illustrated. They take a perfectly good recipe, manufacture some "flaw" and then come up with a "new and improved" recipe. Most of the time the "new" recipe isn't particularly new or innovative.
What's amusing to me about this is that they appear to have either gotten some very bad legal advice, "you have a copyright claim if someone modifies one of your recipes;" or they got good legal advice, and ignored it. Either way, there is not a scintilla of a hint of a wafting-essence of a legal claim for copyright infringement based on what I've read above.
(I am not your lawyer and this is not legal advice, btw).
I work for a publishing company, so copyright issues (with print and digital media) is a familiar issue we deal with daily. We take recipes from other sources, modify them (our take is we modify them to be a bit healthier, not necessarily lower in calories though). Recipes and food are not our focus, but we do use and discuss them from time to time. If there's ever a question, we source them, just like you say you do.
The American Heart Association also has recipes and they charge a fee for people to use their recipes (even with modifications), but they are the only outfit we've had issues with. And they've been quite diplomatic yet clear about it.
But other than that, we've never had a company contact us in such an informal, casual, and questionable manner like "Deborah" from ATK.
I'm glad you re-posted the recipe. :) You are doing the right thing.
MY GOD!
That is pure madness. Thanks for sharing and for posting some clarifying remarks.
Whew! I've actually never read or paid any attention to Cook's Illustrated. The poor bastards: Now most of us never will! Some PR move on their part.
I think that it's ironic that your PR firm would generate negative publicity for you due to their actions. Maybe it's time for ATK to find a new public relations representative.
So maybe the food blogging world should just agree to refer to recipes as "adapted from 'They who shall not be named'" and all is right with the world? I think it's weird as hell that you were chastised for actually giving credit to the inspiration. It irks me when people go around stealing recipes from other bloggers and using them as their own. Just give credit peeps, this is not hard. But CI has really taken the cake on this one. And for the record- their "perfect blueberry pie" was FAR from it.
Two of my recent posts were recipes of theirs. I just removed them and linked to this post. Of course, if anyone wants them, they can email me. They can't stop that!
It's still so amazing to me the lengths they'd go to. Now it's biting them in the ass.
Wow...that's so crazy. Props to you for dealing with that nonsense so well. The whole idea is totally ridiculous. And to be fair, i find the Cook's Illustrated/Testkitchen/etc group to be quite boring and now have even more reason not to like them. Thanks for telling us what happened!
Way to go for posting the entire exchange... and along with everyone else out there, I agree that you're totally in the right.
I've always done the same -- ingredients as is, unless I change them, obviously, and rewrite the steps if they are more lovingly descriptive than the "Heat over high for 10 minutes" variety.
I've actually gotten email from the author of one of my favorite cookbooks (Jay Solomon's Great Bowls of Fire) for "keeping it alive"!
What a mess, and I think that if nothing else comes of this, that ATK will learn that to tilt at windmills has a definite public relations cost.
I'm the Executive Producer of the Culinary Media Network. Before we added audio and video shows to our offerings, we started off as The Gilded Fork, an online magazine featuring articles, interviews with chefs, and original recipes.
back in the "wild west days" of food blogging a few years ago, we used to notice quite often people taking our recipes AND PHOTOS verbatim and posting them with absolutely no credit given to us as the original source. This is quite irksome. We would get our panties in a wad, and get all upset, and try to find ways to make the offenders pay
(And in some cases, we did, quite comicallly: One blogger not only reprinted our recipe without permission, claiming it as his own, but he actually linked to our photo on our site, and thus was leeching bandwidth from us as well! We dealt with that by simply swapping out the photo for a graphic that said "This photo and recipe were stolen from the The Gilded Fork. For the original, go to....")
Anyway, my point here is that there have been egregious misuses of people's hard work on the internet in the past. I think for the most part, that doesn't go on nearly as much as it used to, and any blog worth reading will always credit the source and inspiration for any recipe they reprint.
We decided to "stop worrying and love the bomb" to paraphrase Kubrick, and allow people to reprint our recipes in their entirety as long as they link to us, give credit, and don't profit from the recipe. Then it's win-win.
Now, our recipes do have a substantial amount of prose which is directly attributable to us. We add "Chef's Notes", which further explain certain techniques, or which offer ways to avoid mistakes. Those, and the particular style we use in the method is definitely our own. But we in no way presume to think that our recipe is "the best", and we only hope that people have the decency to link to us, so that people can discover us for themselves.
What a dumb move for ATK/CC/CI to make, especially considering that so many people ALREADY find them pretentious, overbearing, milquetoast, and anal-retentive to begin with.
Good on you for standing up to them.
Sadly this does not surprise me.
I long ago decided that I didn't like CI or any of the associated brands purely because of that 'we test everything millions of times so it is the best recipe' crap. That probably explains why all their recipes are bland-ass crap too.
Of course they have no 'rights' to the recipes. They DO have rights to the discussion about 'we boil the potatoes for ten minutes exactly in 3 liters of water salted precisely with 2 teaspoons of sea salt because that results in potatoes with just the right balance between firmness and softness' or whatever. Of course that assumes we are using the same damn kind of potato to start with...
I am really glad you kept at her about the attitude thing. The woman in question should be fired just for how she handled it. How hard is it to say 'I'm sorry - that is the policy - I don't make the policy but I have to enforce it regardless of whether it makes sense to you or anyone else.
But what I do not understand is the people who acknowledge all these failings and STILL buy their s^&@#...
Good for you! I hope ATK realizes how much they've hurt themselves with this stance and by hiring someone as unprofessional as Deborah.
You behaved well. They are wrong about the copyright law and were bullying you into compliance with their unreasonable demand. As for the perfection of their recipes - NOT TRUE. I often find their techniques to be interesting and enlighting, but their seasoning to be bland and boring. They cook to the tastes of those working in the test kitchen - which clearly tends towards food that tastes underseasoned to my palate. There is no such thing as objectively definable perfect food because we all have different taste buds and different expectations of what food should taste like.
Nobody expects the Culinary Inquisition.
St. Julia, defend us.
Holy Raining HELL! I mean, seriously? I am bookmarking this, bc when she comes after me, I'm going to send her this link and just write "I don't think so, little Mama".
This is SO informative - and I think every food blogger needs to read this. Really interesting! Thank YOU.
As long as I know the copyright works only for:
a. Reprinting the original recipe 100% for any purposes (if it is NOT a recipe which is already known since xxx years everywhere, and thus not an invention of the meant owner - I think this basic kind of potato salad is a good example).
b. Using an unmodified or only slightly modified recipe for COMMERCIAL purposes.
c. Special unique recipes, which are the property of their inventor (Pierre Hermé's Macaron Ispahan comes to mind... But I did not see Pierre Hermé so far oppose bloggers recreating modified recipes based on this!).
In other words - those guys KNOW they are losing the game, because they are not good enough, and therefore they are acting this aggressive. Have you ever seen David Lebovitz oppose recreations based on his recipes? No. The real pros have no reason to fear humble followers... Even the not so famous chefs are usually happy about such kind of free advertising!
This is completely and utterly ridiculous. It's an insipid company anyway. I had a (brief) subscription to Cook's Illustrated and was totally unimpressed with the recipes. I get a free copy and an offer to resubscribe almost every month. Maybe their PR dept. should work on pushing the publishers to produce a better magazine rather than chasing down good cooks who are furthering their work! YIKES!
You realize what we need to do, right?
We ALL need to make this recipe, modify it to our hearts' contents, and then post about it in our blogs.
I'm actually quite serious about this. I'm ready to make Debbie work for her salary.
Sorry if I restate something already said, but I didn't read through all 99 of your comments. Damn, this is one hot issue! I laughed throughout your entire post. I love CI, but mostly for their product reviews. They do, in fact, have very few recipes per issue, and when I make them, I ALMOST ALWAYS MODIFY THEM! Hahaha...perfect my ass! A recipe is all about personal tastes and expressions. What joy is there in cooking if you only follow strict adherence to the recipe each time? Hell, I'll just go to a restaurant if I want something that tastes the same each time. I cook so things taste the way I want them too. A little more garlic? Always good. Less salt? Probably. Well, CI, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I guess you never learned to take a compliment. Honestly, if this is how they want to treat their readers - and food bloggers in general, I don't think I'll be renewing my subscription.
I guess none of us can make potato salad ever again! I mean, God, how many incarnations of the dish is there, and who are they to tell us not to write?? Am I to assume that the whole CI franchise are the only ones who write cookbooks out there?
Watch now, all us commenters are going to wind up F'ed over... save copies of your blogs, people!
While I think CC's attitude towards altering recipes is silly, there is an issue here that perhaps needs to be addressed. I regret bringing up potential problems, but this is something you need to consider.
There are potential ethical and legal problems that can arise when Part A posts Party B's e-mails to the internet without Party B's permission. I'm no lawyer, but I'd suggest you look here and elsewhere through Google searches to get some sense of what's involved in this kind of situation.
As a sidenote, I LOVE the idea Kristen had. If I actually liked potato salad I would follow through. Maybe I'll ask around to find people who like it.
Lists of ingredients cant be copyrighted, and by changing that list you created a "derivative works", so its now YOUR recipe!
Sounds like you had a fun day
Am I missing something here? What are you all getting so worked up over? The magazine is being heavy handed. Big deal. There's no need to give them more oxygen by writing this post. Simply remove any reference to them and be done with it. Then they can't complain.
BTW If I was you, I wouldn't worry about copyright law, I'd be terrified though about libel.
Imabsolutely with you!! Are millions of recipe and who made the first???? Nobody know, here in my country you find sometimes the same recipe in differents versions! this woman is crazy and Is logical that you publish recipes is to people inspired in them and how Peter said is only bullshit! LOL xxxGloria
I believe libel only applies if the claimant can prove you've said something about them that's both untrue and harmful.
And if a person simply voices an opinion, that's not actionable because opinions aren't "falsifiable," so to speak.
In any case, libel's a tough thing to prove in court.
Sounds like Chris Kimball got up with his bow tie knotted too tightly around his neck.
I WAS a long time ATK/CI subscriber until today. Also two years ago was one of their home recipe testers, one of the "we tested the recipes 100 times" people. I'm not sure they were reading any of the comments us home testers were writing because when the recipes were finally published there were never any changes based upon an of our suggestions.
I guess, by ATK logic, they owe all the people who they stole their recipes from some money if recipes are trademarked huh?
If you've made enough modifications - screw 'em it's not their recipe anymore - it's YOURS!
Wow, who knew there could be such a commotion over a freaking potato salad recipe? Yay for you for standing up to such nonsense (nonsense = Deborah). I would have canceled my Cook's Country subscription after reading this if I hadn't already done so last year.
This woman is the perfect illustration of passive aggressive personality. She sucks the life out of something that should be fun
And all this over freakin' potato salad! As if Cook's recipe is the authoritative one. Five years from now no one will remember this outfit and this pompous ass
Oh, wow.
Here you're actually giving them credit and they're biting the hand that feeds them. How many of us buy a book after see a good recommendation? I know I do.
I love to cook, but of all my cookbooks I only have a handful (perhaps 3?) of recipes that I've followed 'to the t'.
My husband often tells me "why are you buying cookbooks if you never follow the recipe?" (I buy cookbooks frequently and subscribe to a couple of magazines)
And here I was thinking of subscribing to Cooks Illustrated...guess I'll save the money and buy a few baking books instead!
Unbelievable. I totally wouldn't have let it go; I would have continued the exchange with that bitchy woman who has an obvious self-esteem problem. Why else would she have to be so condescending to you? As I see it, if you modify a recipe you make it your own. It's great to give a nod to your inspiration.
I wouldn't change a thing.
Let them sue you! You think their case would ever hold up in court? I don't!
Wow, this hit a nerve in me. I so dislike arrogant people.
I don't think I can add much more than what's already been said. I'm proud of you for standing up to that big corporate bully. I've never been impressed with CI or CC anyway.
Truth is an absolute defense against libel, so as long as you were truthful, I think you're safe. Personal opinions are not libelous either.
I think you are a douchebag who should find something better to get all up in arms about.
How about not taking stuff from other websites and posting as if it's your own. Easy enough.
You are absolutely in the right. Cooks Illustrated/ATK needs to check with its lawyers. If it turns out that they don't have rights over the work (which they likely don't as it is a recipe and is not subject to copyright law unless it constitutes substantial literary expression, which it doesn't), they are liable for tens of thousands of dollars in damages because they are hassling you? You might want to suggest that to them.
I really don't think this is a fight they want to pick.
Good God, I can't believe what you went through. Thanks for the post. Very informative. . . and damn funny, too.
Hey anonymous!
Guess what? It takes about 10 minutes to write a post like this one - not exactly a big chunk out of one's day.
It's obvious you are affiliated with Cooks Illustrated/ATK which makes this even more disappointing.
I'm really shocked at their attitude. I generally take things like this with a grain of salt, but I'm with everyone else, I'll look elsewhere for my recipes here on out.
Wow... that woman needs help! I'm so proud of you for standing your ground. I am a subscriber to Cook's Country and Cook's Illustrated... oddly enough I am due to renew my subscription. However, after seeing how snarky they really are I'm switching to Fine Cooking. Yep, count me in as another lost customer for they who shall not be named! Bahahahahaha!! Let the revolution begin!
hi, i'm here from serious eats. i just wrote a nasty letter to deborah boide on your behalf. appalling!!!! i'm thinking of canceling my subscriptions.
Melissa,
1) Nice Job;
2) It's just potato salad;
3) Great PR move, I am sure they are glad they did this.
Marc
i just want to say, now that it's gotten to this point, THANK YOU!!! Nearly all of you have filled my day with lots of good vibes and thoughts and suggestions and I heartily appreciate it.
More gratitude to follow in another post.
Melissa - I like your pluck!
What baffles me is that it was OK for them to modify someone else's recipe, but that is not OK for you, simply because their's was tested 100 times?
Well you do have a strong voice! Good for you. I wish I could be that strong and vocal and stand up for myself. I am such a wuss! Wanna work for me?
But in terms of copyright, my experience has always been in design and I have the understanding that if you change it in at least 3 ways to a good degree, you could not really be charged with infringement. But that is in design.. visual art.
I cannot believe it was such a big deal over potato salad! Seriously, there are like 2 or 3 versions out there period with minor variations!!!
Looking forward to later fall out conversations. On a positive outcome... way to get hits on your site! :-)
wow- interesting story.
Another reminder to not get pushed around by know-it-alls... as they usually don't.
keep us updated
Thanks to Elle for linking to this.
Shame on them for trying to pee and mark their spot on a recipe you modified. Charging for recipes? Have they surfed the internet these days? My favorite cooking magazine has all their recipes online FREE yet I still purchase their magazine. Get a clue CI.
biting the hand that feeds them, indeed!
I have to say, I really appreciate Michael's comments above about Deborah's likely position as a clerk and the whole murky, sticky morass that is IP law. Very insightful and interesting.
i just came back to check out the comments against the website that doesn't want you to modify their recipes: maybe we should all do posts like this - the anonymous commentator who mentioned the douchebag clearly needs to have one chucked on his head
I was going to leave a big rant about how you had done nothing wrong and how Deborah handled the situation very poorly but I see that 129 other people already have.
I do understand them wanting some control over their material (heck, I want something like control over my own material) but if you are linking to them and/or giving them free publicity why would they try to knock you down for that?
Another commenter got it right: they don't have a leg to stand on legally so all they can resort to is to act intimidating.
I once used a picture from the Register on my blog and was contacted by somebody telling me to take it down. I said, "Well, I'm not exactly making money by using this one picture of yours. Is it really that big of a deal?" They said, "We just want control over our material and to make sure we are not being portrayed negatively." I said, "Yeah, I totally understand that but you saw how I was using the picture and that it wasn't in a negative way so don't you have the ability to make an exception?" They didn't have an answer for that. Anyways, the woman I was dealing with on this was nice and just doing her job and all but sometimes you wish these reps of big corporations would look at how their material is being used and maybe decide to not have a complete freakout if credit and linkage is given and if it's not in a negative way. Nothing wrong with mentioning a recipe and suggesting alterations to it.
We must all also keep in mind that this is one person, not the whole company.
Hopefully Deborah will read all these comments and backpedal appropriately.
To anonymous:
"How about not taking stuff from other websites and posting as if it's your own."
That's not what Melissa did so your comment is irrelevant. She clearly stated, "And though I made numerous modifications to the recipe, I credited Cook's Country as the original source." Also, Deborah said she's willing to give permission to others to reprint Cook's Country recipes. So your comment is doubly irrelevant.
i feel like not only posting their recipes, saying their recipes are shitty and modified 'em unrecognizable.
of cos, never browse their site, don't even dream of no subscription, or purchasing of any kind.
bite THAT, biyatch!
You have GOT to be kidding. What a bunch of assholes. You are totally in the right, and they are totally high if they think that their recipes are not going to be freely distributed and modified. I'm sitting here just seething. I mean, seriously, are they for real?
ps...."inspired by fuckers" I *so* want to use that line. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LMFAO
you go girl! really - uneblievable!!! all over a potato salad ... ts ts ts :)
yeah the power of the blogs to exchange information - something deborah doesn't understand!
someone else's 'perfect' isn't always mine - my sister has her perfect potato salad but always makes it without bacon and eggs for me because I eat neither - doesn't mean it isn't perfect to her or that it is perfect to me
if they really want to save money I suggest they stop wasting money on Deborah's salary
(came here from Shazam in the kitchen - and glad I read this fascinating post)
kudos!!
so they invented potato salad?
And theyre also taking away your right to say, so this recipe, i like it better this way.
fuckers.
I'm really diggin' this show of solidarity and more than ever...I want to try a ATK recipe (evil grin)..BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAHHAHA!
So if I have a food allergy and have to modify their recipes in order to eat them, I can't do that and then tell people about it? I guess they don't want me as a customer.
Inspired by fuckers indeed!! ROTFLMAO.
Who on earth do they think they are, and do they really think that this is GOOD publicity for them?? Agree with previous commenters that they are way off the mark in saying their recipes are copyrighted - you CAN'T copyright an ingredient list! So maybe they'd prefer if next time you didn't credit them at all??! But personally I'd go with a little "IBF" (inspired by f...) tag whenever a blogger wants to use their recipes...
Melissa - I just posted about your story to help spread the word (show of solidarity indeed), complete with a recipe. So again, good work!
And, to the above commenters - I LOVE the idea of the IBF tag...
Hey!!!
That's MY recipe!!
Testing a potato salad recipe 100 times?? That seems like a total waste of food to me.
Well done for standing up to them. What a ludicrous bunch of people they seem to be.
I just shredded my renewal form for CI. Way too bad, I've been subscribing to them for years. For someone like me to get their step by step, it's been happy in my kitchen up until now.
Thanks for giving me one fewer corporate entity with which to spend my money. Um, having a bad day? I bet that PR person is, right about now! And it's a well-deserved bad day. It's ridiculous that she was so snarky and awful...AND WRONG.
You were totally in the right. And you have my complete support.
ok, first things first, i kind of understand why they don't want people reprinting exact recipes due to financial loss. Got it.
This woman was an a$$hole and talked down to you and treated you as if you were stupid. THAT is not to be tolerated. Her professional demeanor was poor and she should've just stopped emailing you back after the 3rd or 4th exchange (which, i totally know would've been infuriating to you as it would me as i like to get the last word in sometime!). the bottom line is, she was unprofessional w/ you.
you had every right to as all these questions and be annoyed, but she is in the professional position. not right.
i'm not a fan of that america's test kitchen thing anymore. at first i liked it cause it was small and non-corporate, but then i really was not getting very inspired by their meals. that's just me. this has put me over the edge and i will never renew my subscription again.
next time, you're right, just make the modifications so now it's YOUR recipe and don't even bother crediting them as inspiration.
now my jaw is clentching!!
amy @ we are never full
Wow, what a PR disaster. So much for trying to create a brand identity. I've found myself less and less impressed with ATK over the years. Stopped Tivo-ing it cause it puts me to sleep, but the magazine was still ok.
Couple things that always bug me about them:
1. They say they make the recipe 100 times, but then they only have 12 tasters. Huh?
2. They take a classic recipe and do bizzarre substitutions and procedures to it and conclude this is the only way to get the recipe to come out the way you rememver it as a kid/your grandmother made it.
I don't need any convincing anymore about my renewal. Thanks for saving me 25 bucks!
I hope that the people of Cooks Illustrated/America's Test Kitchen/cook's country read this to know that food bloggers are the ones out there paying their salaries. I can't tell you how many cookbooks or magazines I've bought because of recipes other food bloggers have posted. Look at Dorie Greenspan's book - I'm sure she's sold thousands of copies just because the food blogging world embraced that book.
I'm bad, because I probably would have researched to find out who her supervisor is, just to let them know how unprofessional she was.
Remember, everyone, that Deborah is only one person at Cook's Illustrated and it could be she's just about to get fired. Generalizing her actions to the whole company may not make sense.
"I'm bad, because I probably would have researched to find out who her supervisor is, just to let them know how unprofessional she was."
That might actually be the best idea.
Remember, everyone, that Deborah is only one person at Cook's Illustrated and it could be she's just about to get fired. Generalizing her actions to the whole company may not make sense.
Alternatively, it's worth remembering that Deborah could have just been doing her job (albeit in a patronising and unprofessional way!) - and should not become a ATK's scapegoat just because she's the one who got caught out!
Does anyone know if there has been any response to all this from CI/ATK/CC??! Would be interesting to know what's going on behind their doors atm!
Good God Almighty. First and foremost, you conducted yourself appropriately given the bizarre behavior on behalf of the PR midget at CI. She should not have continued the zealous, agitating conversation beyond one or two "professional" responses. She should be FIRED immediately! And the backlash that this whole scenario has generated will undoubtedly affect existing and potential CI subscribers. CI has been one of my favorite cooking references for years, but I never realized how petty they really are. If they choose to play in the "big leagues" with the "big boys", they better "man up" or leave the game.
"Alternatively, it's worth remembering that Deborah could have just been doing her job (albeit in a patronising and unprofessional way!) - and should not become a ATK's scapegoat just because she's the one who got caught out!"
That option is possible too. Shows that none of us know the truth of the matter and that we shouldn't make assumptions and rash decisions. Somebody should contact somebody at CI who is above Deborah.
I got here through Joanne's blog. Kudos to you for not just lying down and letting some corporate bitch on a power trip get the best of you. Glad you fired back! Don't these people know that some of the best advertisment is through word of mouth? Or better yet, blogs ;)
What are they anyways, the recipe nazi's? Who's to say that someone hasn't already come up with their 'perfected' recipe and just never published it?
Tanks for posting this, I enjoyed reading it!
What if I ask for permission to post a recipe, and then in the post give their original `satisfaction guaranteed` recipe and say it sucks so needs modification? Is it still illegal?
Good lord, this is preposterous.
I just canceled my online CI membership in protest. I also sent an email to their web subscription department (using their customer service form) and sent a copy to the magazine editors (that's cooks@americastestkitchen.com) explaining that their bullying has cost them dearly, both in terms of financial cancellations and ill will.
I also am removing every link to Cooks from my site, and adding a footnote to the affected pages with a link here.
I am so disappointed in CI. I wish they would address this because what's happening is ridiculous.
I just took a stroll through their on-line forums and ran across way more than one recipe from other sources. This thread, for example, has one directly from Alice Medrich and another from Fine Cooking.
http://www.americastestkitchen.com/ibb/posts.aspx?postID=213737&postRepeater1-p=1#213942
....and there are more
Look, it's been 4 days now since this firestorm started. Anyone can post here and I'm not aware of any official response from ATK here or anywhere else, so "let's give them the benefit of the doubt/not make assumptions" is not a strategy I am sympathetic with.
I'm skeptical ATK will take the high road and address this issue head on. Although ATK publications are not as ubiquitous as Dell, there is still something to learn from the whole Jeff Jarvis fallout they endured. My guess is that ATK are hoping it blows over and waiting it out.
I sincerely hope the person you were dealing with was an intern - and that they're fired promtly. I've never seen such horrible email ettiquite! I find that people who lack skill tend to use the word "as" way too often (ie: "as they are copyrighted" - it just screams "I'm not strong enough to make my point").
Why do I hope it's an intern? I work in media, and if there's a PR agent that isn't aware of the power of Word of Mouth Marketing, they should quit right now and start folding shirts at the Gap.
I have to say, I think that bitter spirit is common in their kitchen. I remember an episode of America's Test Kitchen where Christopher Kimball was clearly irked that Alton Brown had a subtled branded knife - Alton's Angles by Kershaw Shun. Bitter much?
"My guess is that ATK are hoping it blows over and waiting it out."
Maybe so. This is a big comapny trying to deal with cyberspace where everything's a free-for-all and where everybody wants everything given to them for free. If they have no control over their material then what reason do they have to exist? This is not to say that Deborah's actions were justified, because they weren't, but the company may not have the resources to run around stomping out every little forest fire that starts on a blog even if they wish they had those resources and even if one of their employees acted counter to the company's policies. I'm not pretending to know the absolute truth of the matter.
You go girl! I read about this over @ Evil Chef's and it totally incenses me.
I've been cooking for 45 years and have modified more recipes than anyone can imagine. If I wrote a cookbook, my stories about cooking and the way I do things is simply my story and my way of doing things. Just because some group comes along and claims that it's their recipe does not make it so. My own grandmother protected her recipes with great zeal, for a reason. They were unique and interesting... not the run-of-the-mill everyday recipe like one finds at a place like CI. I guess what I'm saying is that they can make as much fuss as they want, but if I use one of their run-of-the-mill recipes and change a few ingredients and some of the directions, then it is my own and therefore, I should not have to even post a link to them. Period. I wouldn't even think about it. You are much nicer than I.
And her condescending emails really got my flaps going. "I'm sorry you're having such a bad day?" I would have totally jumped down her throat. What a bitch. I'm sure I would have said something like "Actually, I'm having a lovely day. It's this shit sandwich you've handed me that I'm having problems dealing with, lol. However, it still won't cost me my day. You people are the only ones having the problem. Not I. I was actually attempting to send more readers your way because I have a huge following. Guess you didn't want more readers. OK. Oh, and please do feel free to take your copyright bullshit for Potato Salad and shove it straight up your anal retentive assholes." Yes, I'm quite the diplomat, aren't I?
I also look at it this way... If I reprint a food blog recipe, I always link to the blog, but have only done that once. But, geeze loueeze, there are gazillions of potato salads out there. How does one copyright a recipe that has been around waaaay longer than the person wanting a copyright on it? WTF? I was making potato salad long before those little shits over at CI were even glints in someone's eye. I mean, come on! Let's get real people. This whole thing is ludicrous on CI's part. Hey you people over at Cooking Illustrated need to GET OVER YOURSELVES. You are NOT UNIQUE CI. On the other hand, I like this blog and now I'll be a diehard fan, thanks to CI, lol. This blog IS UNIQUE. So screw you, CI. And screw that snippy little person you have riding shotgun for you. If I had her job, I'm afraid I'd have to kill myself, lol.
Damn! I just noticed they are using my grandmother's recipe for Brisket and giving it away for free.
Honestly, there is absolutely nothing unique over there. It's just simple, fairly plain food. What can possibly be so special as to copyright? Gimme a break.
Totally timely. I just received a free issue of Cook's Illustrated the other day. As I skimmed the editors note I noted that the editor commented on how he just couldn't understand "why women feel the need to check their voice mail after a few days away" or "automatic transmissions".... Ummmm try living in San Francisco... where females with full social lives need to drive on 60* angled hills... As I tossed it into the recycling bin I thought "man I never want to read that magazine...ever". And now the great potato salad debacle of '08. I don't get it. Where do these people live? Who are they and why are they so unaware?
If they have the resources to send Deborah trolling the net looking for references to their brand, then they should have the resources to handle the consequences. I can understand their position given their subscription-based online business model (a model which, I think primarily only the porn industry still embraces today). All the references to them make no difference if users can't get past the front door without a paid subscription. I'm guessing they want everyone to go to a single place for their ATK info, so I can see why they have this role that Deborah fills (just not in this decade). What's at stake here is their brand, which transcends changing business models/ventures, and if they continue to ignore this, then the brand suffers. Of course, maybe they figure fewer bloggers with access to their material means fewer places to have to look for recipe adaptations (and respect). Just a thought.
hee...
i want nothing, but nothing whatsoever to do with ATK ever again. i used to buy their mag on occasion but i am done with them.
So basically, this wouldn't have been a problem if you just posted your recipe and didn't give credit? So by actually giving credit to the original source, you're in trouble? That is so ridiculous!
What gets me is the "no modifications" rule. Um, what? Recipes are not perfect for everyone. Some people are allergic to certain foods. Some have to modify salt or fat content. Some just plain don't like a certain ingredient. So even though they tested their recipe 100 times, their recipe may still need to be changed for certain people. They need to realize that.
I would have been raging mad at the point where she says, "sorry, you must be having a bad day! Hope it gets better!" Might as well just say, "wow, you must be PMS'ing!" How condescending.
Sorry you had to go through this, but you have an army of food bloggers behind you!
"So basically, this wouldn't have been a problem if you just posted your recipe and didn't give credit? So by actually giving credit to the original source, you're in trouble? That is so ridiculous!"
Exactly.
Melissa, do you know if Deborah has seen all these comments yet?
Wow, that's really... astounding. I'm so surprised to hear they did that - I can't imagine why? It seems incredibly pretentious - they should be happy that you're at least mentioning their name, rather than just saying "this is a potato salad I made". Because if you hadn't mentioned them at all, I suppose it'd had been completely allright - since you made modifications, it's not their recipe at all...
Christian, I wouldn't think she has. I just feel like she would have emailed me already if that were the case.
Sorry I haven't been sitting in on the discussion guys, but you can trust I am reading every comment! It's just a bit overwhelming to try to take it all in and formulate a response/followup. I will do so by the end of today.
Wow... hot topic over here today!
I have never heard of Cook's Country or America's Test Kitchen but I have to say, as a cook...
Sorry, no modifications allowed. Our recipes are tested up to 100 times for a reason (i.e. because they work).
Tested?
100 Times?
They work?
Is this food we're talking about or some kind of science experiment? I don't think I have EVER redone a recipe exactly as the first time... recipes evolve, get over it.
I'm glad you reposted the recipe.
Many kudos to you ... from yet another blogger who believes that sharing food is what life is all about.
The ever-evolving recipe is a fact of life. It's what progress is all about.
Leave it to the tight ones over at CI /America's Test Kitchen to get in a tizzy over this.
Glad you posted.
Funny I just dumped a unread trial magazine from them. Honestly out of all the magazines out there I never fell in love with this one. Too boring for me. You handeled yourself well.This is all a new minefield, but we need fighters like you .
Melissa! I am angry for you! I can't believe you were treated that way....wow. This is the life of food bloggers, recipes were meant to be shared! :) But hey, she boosted your traffic :)
How weird I should read your post today. I've been posting recipes that I learnt from a recent cookery course, always referring back to the chef who taught me and stating clearly that the recipes were taken from the course booklet and available from her site. Today we had a brief email exchange and she was completely fine about it, luckily. In hindsight, I should have checked with her first. Well done for standing up for yourself!
Crazy. Who knew??!! Well, sorry you had to go through this, but I'm glad you posted your experience b/c now I know where I WON'T be getting my recipes from! The "perfect" recipe...whatever.
The modifications thing really annoys me. And the fact that she doesn't get it annoys me more, her emails would have set me off! Great PR Deborah!! lol
Here's where I think CI is clueless:
If you like the ATK stuff, you will go buy their cookbooks. Doesn't matter if you can find a recipe or two online..you like the style, the (long) notes about how they go to that specific recipe so you buy their books.
If you don't really know about ATK books, why would you buy one? Been to a bookstore lately? A gazillion cookbooks. I don't see the ATK books popping out at someone saying "buy me, buy me". What would make you buy one of their cookbooks?
Because you go to a blog where someone has posted a recipe from the book. Whether they got permission to post it or not, if you make that recipe and it works, you'll be more likely to go buy the cookbook the recipe came from to try other recipes. And you'll tell your friends to buy the cookbook. Can't tell you home many times I've done that with other cookbooks...find the recipe on a food blog and then go buy the corresponding cookbook.
And I'm not stupid. If someone "modified" the original recipe from an ATK book and it didn't work, I wouldn't NOT by the cookbook because it was "based" on that recipe and the bloggers modifications didn't work.
Yeah, what's that bitch's email address? I feel the need to tell her that I have a recipe on my blog straight from Cook's Country, posted back in February. I modified the shit out of it, too. And it was one of my most popular recipes. Excuse me, one of their most popular recipes.
WTF. For real.
I'd like to share with you an "incident" that I had with Cook's Illustrated which caused me to threaten the life of Christopher Kimball on my own blog.
I purchased a gift subscription to CI for my mom. After she died, I continued to receive notices trying to get me to renew the gift. I called them and said please remove me from your mailing list because this person is DEAD.
I continued to get notices. I continued to call. I was more and more upset on each call. They blamed "the system."
I got another notice. It was addressed to "the estate of" my mom. I called yet again. DEAD PEOPLE DON'T COOK, ASSHOLES.
I wrote angry blog posts.
I continued to get notices.
I finally sent two email - one to their "letter to the editor" and another to their subscrption department. I BEGGED them to stop harrassing me.
Everything has stopped for now. But I will not be surprised if it starts up again at Christmas.
I have rid my home of every cookbook of theirs or magazine copy. I will never cook another of their recipes again. Frankly, they really aren't that good.
I am outraged for you and for all of us. I will support a boycott. I didn't like them much to begin with.
Think of all those tv chefs whose every recipe is online and yet sell millions of books. If people like it they will buy it. I have bought a ton of books and magazines that I have read about in foodie blogs.
They should be ashamed of themselves. They have pissed off a large and important group of people. I hope they fold.
You know, I haven't liked CI for a while now, and I utterly loathe Cook's Country, because, frankly, their recipes are not all that.
And the reason I dislike CI so intensely is I hate their attitudes towards ethnic foods, particularly Asian ones, and frankly, the PR person's condescending attitude is similar to the tone the writers who destroy Asian recipes in their magazines take. They dumb their food down, so why should we be surprised that they assume that anyone who uses their recipes is stupid as well.
Good for you for standing up to the jerks. And I am going to write about this on my blog, too, because, well dammit--they are not on the right side of the law on the issue.
Not to mention that the whole concept that no one is allowed to modify their precious recipes is such a load of horse hockey that I cannot even see straight after reading this.
Look, I am a working chef, and I put my own recipes online FREE all the damned time. And I always say that if someone wants to change it up my recipes a bit, good for them. That is the essence of true creativity in the kitchen, and I will be damned if I squelch that in someone else.
The arrogance of that outfit is just beyond words.
For the moment.
Give me a while, and I will think of a few choice ones and put them on my blog.
Just you wait.
Oh, and I wanted to say to Hedgie, who wrote, "No one expects the Culinary Inquisition. St. Julia, protect us."
You rock.
Thank you ever so much. I nearly snorted rice out of my nose laughing at that, because I could simultaneously hear the line in John Cleese's and Julia Child's voices.
It was a beautiful moment on my brain TV there, thanks to you.
*bows*
(which is risky in these tights)
IMHO, you make the food in your own kitchen, you modify the recipes and you take your own pics, you're not stealing from anyone. I'm real glad I discovered your blog! :)
OK, after 180 comments, I don't have anything unusual to add, but geesh, certainly a bad PR move on their part, eh? If you make modifications to the recipe, as Robin said, the recipe is now new and yours. And to think, I almost doublebacked at Costco today to pick up an issue of Cook's Country. Glad I didn't. :)
My oh my, girl, what a ruckus you've raised. Well, Peter did by bringing your plight to the forefront. I'm glad I took the time to read through every comment as Elise said pretty much what I would have said to you. Several years ago I did extensive research into copyright law as it concerns recipes and she's spot on. You are clearly in the right and CI/ATK clearly have their collective heads up a very dark place and, really, if you took it to conclusion, they could be paying you harassment damages. Keep your chin up!
I'm so glad I found your blog. Thanks Peter!
Hi Melissa, great blog - and seriously, what a crock o'crap that you even had to go through this nonsense over freaking POTATO SALAD - I'd love to see a gang of pissed off grandmothers, chefs and ancestors go right over to ATK and open up the whoop-ass for tinkering with THEIR recipes. As if all cooks and foodies are a nation of clones with identical palates. I really used to like them and respected the time and care they put into testing their recipes, but this has totally changed my mind about how high and mighty they clearly think they are. Perfected, my ass.
Found you linked from Sweetnicks--I certainly will be avoiding "the fuckers" from now on. And I'll share this link with more people so they can too... Can't wait to read more of your blog!
i am amazed how many people in the us (and elsewhere perhaps) subscribe to magazines such as this one: in Crete, Greece, where i live, no one would dream of getting inspiration as for what to cook from such sources: they'll ask their partner, check their garden or local produce seller, and more importantly, eat seasonally preparing foods that in more in line with local tradition.
that said, i'm not knocking the idea of going to other sources for advice about what to cook, but obviously a mother, grandmother, sister or aunt could have quoted the same recipe as the source in question; what would they say if they found it written down and hiding in a page of someone's 'favorite' recipes???
the way we cook in crete bears no resemblance to what is practised by these companies - no one can dictate how to change a recipe
This link to Emeril's Potato Salad Challenge is timely. It was posted on his website on July 24th.
What the?! I'm so pissed off and trying to understand all that's going on. I think everyone has vented my opinions here and bravo for you for standing up to those egotistical, bullying crap heads.
I wonder whose potato salad recipe they had to swipe and alter to get their "copy righted version"?. I bet you I can find a potato salad recipe very similar to theirs that was printed before their version ever hit the print. I think if that were the case, I could accuse them of stealing a potato salad recipe and altering it to make it a Cooks Country original.
Bravo to you for your persistence and we back you up 100% Melissa.
I'm sorry u have to go thru this ... good 4 u for publishing this issue!
anyone who claims that their recipe is "perfect" has a real ego issue imo =x
Well, Melissa, I think you get the picture; you WIN! :-) I told you that we got your back and we do. This is a complete community of foodies who are passionate about cooking. And that's what it is all about, the food.
i am amazed how many people in the us (and elsewhere perhaps) subscribe to magazines such as this one: in Crete, Greece, where i live, no one would dream of getting inspiration as for what to cook from such sources: they'll ask their partner, check their garden or local produce seller, and more importantly, eat seasonally preparing foods that in more in line with local tradition.
Mediterranean Kiwi: It isn't a dependency. Speaking for myself, inspiration is, well was, why I turn to rags and books. I am not a professional chef, so I sometimes need a little nudge to egg on my own creativity. This is the same motivation that Melissa had. I want to make something I never made, so I research how others have made it. Then, I make my own.
White On Rice Couple:
Check the oldest tome of them all, The Joy of Cooking, their potato salad looks eerily similar to the "invention" of CI/ATK/CC; curious!
At this point, I hope to witness the demise of the whole nanny-state old school we-tested-it establishment. For that matter, nothing they have cooked is all that. They have had some good techniques, but c'mon, and authority they're not; a resource maybe. Bullying has cost them in this case.
I love the blogosphere comraderie.
To modify or reprint the Cooks recipe for Boiled Water is only asking for trouble, people. It required 10,000 man hours over 27 years to perfect.
Basterds! Well I guess I will await my email from them!!!LOL
They probably also have the copyright on how to wipe your ass after taking a shit! We better change that too!!!!
I've read other bloggers on this issue before -- you can find one by a blogging lawyer friend here: http://imagineannie.wordpress.com/category/copyrighting-recipes/
You are correct in that "technically" recipes cannot be copyrighted. But the way around urking someone (authors of cookbooks stand to lose here, too) is to alter the "method" in your published recipe. And "technically" if you have altered a recipe (your issue with modification) it is no longer their recipe, and just don't give credit. Do, however, change the method language just enough, especially specific language that is unique to the recipe, that it no longer resembles their recipe.
How sad that they just committed corporate suicide. Just look at the number of comments - and it's only mildly representative of the number who have actually read the post. And...looking through the blogisphere, very mildly representative of the number of blogs and their comments about your experience. Dumb...really dumb of them.
"Please don't email me anymore" - how demeaning is that - just don't respond anymore and you won't get emails. If she's done her job for 14 years, it amazes me that she's kept it this long. I run my own business and if I had someone speaking to clients in this manner - they'd be gone. If you subscribe to their online recipes, you are the client.
This group has been on my list of people to ignore for years. I once bought a cookbook and subscribed to CI but got irritated at the long and stupid things they did to "perfect" a recipe. Like who, with any sense at all would do THAT in a recipe? The products they tested were so superficial. The didn't take into account many factors other than cost. One time the recommended an electric knife sharpener, then when testing knives said forged knives were not so good because their electric knife sharpener destroyed them... words to that effect. They said forged knives are made by pouring melted metal into molds... That is casting and they have not made knives like that since the Bronze Age. Product tasting? Those bozos have wooden palettes. Cant tell the difference between a white onion or yellow. Decided to determine which BBQ sauce was best by choosing the one that had the best tomato taste. New England taste buds don't have a clue about regional food . How presumptuous of then! They picked a sauce that was the worst one I ever tasted. over cooked glorified ketchup. I let the subscription expire. Like Bobgirl I got mailings for years after that. . and more trial copies of recipes and product tests and tastes than made me more mad at them every time.
So now recently I was waiting for Everyday Food to come on TV and ATK was on before it. They mentioned a James Beard recipe and at the end of the show they said I could get their recipes for free at the web site. I go there and have to write my personal autobiography on page after page before I can get to the recipe site. I also check the box that says I don't want them to contact me on every page. I get to the recipe site, look up the James Beard recipe and get a message that the recipe is no longer available... unless I pay for it. I leave in disgust. A few days later I start get mailings again to subscribe to the magazines. Some are even worded in a way that makes me send back "cancel" notices. Then the email spam starts including some chatty newsletters from Chirs himself saying I should get on the waiting list to buy some honey from his farm. Finally I start getting spam from companies.. one says they got my name from Cooks Illustrated. THEY SOLD MY EMAIL ADDRESS TO ADVERTIZERS! I've got more but this is getting long and I'd better stop at this: Don't buy the line that Deborah was an incompetent lackey who didn't follow company policy. They are all like that through and through. If I ever get within a bricks throw of Chris Kimball, he better hope I don't have that brick to chuck at him.
BTW, I found that James Beard recipe in one of my own JB cookbooks and someone who has access to their recipe site sent me their version.. guess what? They CHANGED it!
You go, girl!
Perhaps we can start a petition to get people to cancel their subscriptions to this ridiculous magazine, or at least send letters to the editor about this unreasonable and plain-ass wrong PR person?
Also, wasn't there an incident recently involving Jerry Seinfeld's wife and her cookbook? Someone accused her of plagiarism with her recipes, and a judge ruled that it was ridiculous and either threw out the suit or ruled in her favor.
"Those bozos have wooden palettes."
Do you mean "palates?"
ChristianZ: Now now, play nice...:-)
As a retired art teacher, I prefer to use glass palettes.
Of course i meant palate. Excuse my spelling.
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